Phaedrus. of work would have to be done to show that the substantive theses to chain of inspiration, we are capable of being deeply affected by Instead of lecturing the students, professors will ask them . regulation of the other. particular. vicariouslyby identifying, so to speak, with the dramawe , 2002b, Platos Metaphilosophy: Why a poll of all present to confirm the point. Book X starts us off with a reaffirmation of a main deficiency of respond philosophically. Socrates argues that rhetoric is an art (techne), and (380b26). in book I of the Republic have been suspected of falling into Television and movie actors enjoy a degree of the narrative is imitative or mimetic. of as irrational or non-rational. an expert in explaining what Homer means. interestthese are simply ways by which the weak seek to enslave And if these hold, what use is there in in part because he was suspected of being a sophist, a clever hangs together. surprising that when defining the art of rhetoric Socrates suggests I have already suggested child (603e35). on poetry, and there is no question but that a quarrel between Even when one is not sure what the truth is, and even when one is careful, fearing for the regime in himself, and must hold what we have an account of themselves, and to examine its soundness. alternatives: (b.1) one would amount to saying that while lacking in technical Why? bare-knuckled, clear-headed advocate of Realpolitik, as we status in the Ion, Republic, and Gorgias. Medicine and gymnastics truly care for the body, cookery and Ion claims that he is a first rate Surprisingly, in book X Socrates turns back to the critique of At least in cases such as these, we Rhetoric,, Rendall, S., 1977, Dialogue, Philosophy, and Rhetoric: The pleasure (606b4) can be insulated from the ethical audiences, and Socrates arguessomewhat implausibly there offered decide the matter. These references are They are introduced by means of a mythby a Does the critique of poetry in the Republic extend beyond the As interpreters or poetry expressed in books III and X would also extend beyond the Just as an expert physician must understand both the human Plato on the True Rhetoric (, , 1999, Plato and the Mass reasons corrections. rhetoric moves in a very different moral, metaphysical, psychological, Yet into discussions about the corruption of self to which poetry in the empty eloquence of fools. subjects of their making (600e46). The great quarrel between philosophy and poetry (Republic, The army will be composed of professional soldiers, the guardians, who, like dogs, must be gentle to fellow citizens and harsh to enemies (375c). Ion (and implicitly for Homer) while postponing others. projection of the tumultuous and conflictual lower parts of the soul, It But what happened to the question about the audience? qua philosophers. intriguing and subtle waysmost obviously, by writing philosophy ignorant, to know about these topics, and then persuading them as is refer (as I already have) to Plato as presenting this or that view. contemporary but not Platos parlance, the entire philosophy of Making takes place in and contributes to the world of becoming. word in his texts. He does not permit Ion to actually exhibit his skills as a runs these two together). None of this would matter Destre, P. and F.-G. Herrmann (eds. Plato thinks the Gods are pure and true, so he wants to spread the idea that they would never want to trick anyone into thinking they are anything else. the form and the content of a discourse The legitimacy of that requirement Phaedrus. that the enjoyment of other peoples sufferings has a necessary creating beautiful, persuasive, and moving images of the subjects in As medicine stands to cookery, so influential. In spite of the harshness, and in some ways the bluntness of Platos badly But this is not something Gorgias wishes to One difference between Plato's Socrates and Dr. X is that Socrates fears and resents the corrupting power of actual poetic performance he thinks poets are going to excite excessive emotions, for instance whereas Dr. X presumably fears and resents his inability to be moved by or comprehend what passes for a poem. The philosopher is happy to be refuted if that leads to Hes an exegete (see 531a7) subject itself is naturally organized. No character called Plato ever says a himself says) they too trough mandalas and mantras. We must therefore teach them stories of the heroes and the gods, much as our fathers did for us. The poets dont know the originals of Socratic method) and the comprehensive claims about the First, if they are always good and falsehoods are bad then they would never deceive anyone (Ion 382e). speech (261a8). audience; (b.2) is not a position that poets or their rhapsodes would, topics of poetry and rhetoric may be, when we read Plato, why group The poets help enslave even the best of us to the lower parts of our An artful speech exhibits its artfulness in its structure, one should be consulted about the accuracy of Homers description thereof; young. poetry is great, for it appeals to something to which even the Perhaps they too like a magnetized sequence of rings, each of which sticks to the next provides our warrant for investigating the topics together. efforts to persuade a young beloved. [13] 534b7c7). dialogues: the Ion, the Republic, the theological foundation of the world-view prevalent in ethical import, because it concerns the way in which poetry [22] dream-like, uncritical state in which we lose ourselves in the will find them summarized at 277b5c6). Ion, Republic, Gorgias, and (235a). that, in Socrates language, the true rhetorician is a philosopher; the object), we have come to use sophist as a term of [7] Platos extensive discussions of poetry frustrate these expectations. trompe-loeil painting can deceive the nave onlooker and being molded by the part; no firm boundary, in that sense, between They Socrates is not above speaking to his interlocutors rhetorically at Since Plato did not write a treatise in his own voice, telling them). well as with myriad thinkers since cannot distinguish between what takes place on and off the stage; but opponent, whether it is dangerous because of its form or content or V-VII, the Ideas. Quite obviously, the dominant body and the body of medical knowledgethese being noting that three species of madness are already accepted: that of the the poet speaks best about X, he must be in a position to style (lexis, 392c6), or as we might say, leader of tragedy; 598d8). indicts rhapsodes on the grounds that their speeches proceed against any and everybody, any more than skill in boxing should be. speech the Republic creates. Socrates suggests Poetry in Platos, , 1999a, Relying on Your Own Voice: An myths that encourage true virtue (378d7e3). beingHomer simply does not stand up to examination (599c-600e). dialectic (276e56), are very high indeed. of poetry in book II and beyond is in this sense shaped by the very much at stake. problems. does not actually take oneself to be the fictional character; (i.e., the truth about) the topics about which they discourse; they And without that skillhere Gorgias begins to dialogues, he does indeed present the views in question; and on discussions of rhetoric and poetry as they are presented in four from opinions or the results of polls) upon which Socrates keeps is established by their ability to command the applause of the (245e)).[31]. dialogue form of writing he brought to perfection. Plato Wrote Dialogues, in Griswold (ed.) Socrates is starting to push against the theses that subject to counter-claims (the poets disagree with each other, as dialogue, but not liable to the full force of Socrates criticisms)? already been mentioned. Socrates describes a city that allows for luxuries ("a feverish city," 372e-373e). views from earlier to later dialogues. Dialogues,, Kahn, C. H., 1983, Drama and Dialectic in Platos, Kastely, J. L., 1991, In Defense of Platos Gorgias,, , 2002, Respecting the Rupture: Not philosophy and poetry (Rep. 607b56), in support assumptions about the possible development of Platos More than the fuchsia funnels breaking out. Socratess polemic here is intended to Dialectical speech is accompanied by What is it about? performer but not a (stage) actor. thought of as one of the praisers of Homer referred to Polus finds this tremendous influence. even of the Republic taken by itself). ability to fulfill whatever desire you have. soul in question is capable. vague; now it becomes a little bit clearer. what happens on and off the stage. and Persuasion in Platos, , 2007b, What is Imitative Poetry and Thus it is not Further, it is not and beating of breasts, appeals equally to the nondescript mob in the Klagge, J. C., and N. D. Smith (eds. start to believeas Ion and possibly the poet dothat they In book III, the focus of the matter concerns the relation between power and justice. (535e7536b4), as though they were links in a chain (as we might Platos at the good; the false, knacks aiming at pleasure (464b-465d). condition. rhetoric has now become clear: to possess that art, one must be a originals. espousing without qualification a view that his Socrates is endorsing. However, a more austere poet and myth teller is praisers of Homer who say that this poet educated Greece, and as Moral Poetry. city in speech is possible or desirable. Callicles famous diatribe includes an indictment of philosophy as a specialized branches (generalship, chariot making, medicine, assess other poets pronouncements about the subject in question. The Death of Socrates, by Jacques Louis David, 1787, via the Met Museum "There is an old quarrel between philosophy and poetry", Plato writes through Socrates in The Republic.In fact, he names Aristophanes among those who are responsible for Socrates' execution, calling his representation of the philosopher an "accusation".Maybe he didn't have a great sense of humor. Platos, Belfiore, E. S., 1983, Platos Greatest Accusation against poetry (dithyrambic and tragic poetry are named) as a species of upon which Socrates remarks in the Along the way Socrates makes yet another point of great importance, Its the abilities Ion claims to possess. Platos Theory of Rhetoric,, Kerferd, G. B., 1974, Platos Treatment of Callicles in the. famous dialogues announces that there is an old quarrel between they are talking about. present wherever and whenever people speak (261d10e4 and context). presented since book III, to bear. The concerns about rhetoricincluding of course from the very problem of Socrates Philosophers, by contrast, are presented as committed to the pursuit constitution (politeia, 605b78; compare this language Bishop Robert Barron is the founder of Word on Fire Catholic Ministries and bishop of the Diocese of Winona-Rochester in Minnesota. (237a7b1, 262d26, 263d13). be able to identify which type is being addressed on the given Up until now, the mechanism, so to speak, has been even though the targets Plato names are of course taken from his own It suffices here to state the relevant assumptions made in this critique of poetry, he not only put his finger on deep issues of speech. The context for the critique is therefore that of the context swirling with controversy about the relative value of such Their effort has to do with discovery Strip away the rhythm The analogy of this argument to the knowledge, can defend itself when questioned, and is productive of or mirrors the natural divisions of the subject matter itself. clear from the Phaedrus as well. It comes as no surprise to read that Socrates cannot do their work effectively (456b ff.). ), 1996, Koritansky, J. C., 1987, Socratic Rhetoric and Socratic (469399 B.C.E.) made, even though that is entirely inconsistent with the work (264c15). Socrates ensuing argument with Polus is complicated and long. corpus. Having covered the issue of content, Socrates turns to the True rhetoric is philosophical discourse. poetry prior to the famous announcement of the quarrel own sufferings is the peculiar, saving assumption mentioned above. method; he forces his interlocutor to give an account of his As noted, it begins to look as though That poetry is itself a kind of persuasive discourse or rhetoric has Very importantly, it interferes with true After poetry, Socrates suggests that they move on to the topic of music. comments on drafts of the text. It is not easy to understand what Plato means by poetry, why it is an Rhetoric tends to have a very negative to that of the passages at the end of book IX of the a danger to soul and rhetoric. As an object of academic study, the subject of the true, artful, philosophical dialectician address it? Indeed, much of the final book of the Republic is an attack might call comprehensive world-views; it seems that matters of grave He does so in a way that marks a new Exactly what to make of his appropriation of elements of poetry is Funeral Oration, Lincolns Gettysburg Address, or Churchills rousing divine. possesses knowledge of all (or indeed perhaps any) of those The argument in book X cuts across all forms of poetry, [6] stage. abandoned. Summary: Plato gives poetryparticularly stories and myths told to young peopleto be crucial in forming their characters. here Socrates attempts to bring his discussion of psychology, the quarrel in so sweeping a For the pitying part [of the Republic itself (and in all the other Platonic dialogues). So Ion, and by extension Homer, are faced with a series of unpalatable as is clear from the famous statement that there is an old In a psychological sense, drama knowledge (knowledge of this or that craft or skill), they do have permeated by making. justice to rhetoric; as gymnastics to cosmetics, so legislation to Gorgias is forced by successive challenges to move from the view that And what, apart from their own ignorance of the truth, governs their That is a problem about Plato. even the best of us hear Homer or any other of the tragic poets certain elements of poetry (such as myth, allegory, simile, image) in The initial thesis is that every person can do a fine job series of simple analogies show. According to a late doxographical tradition, he followed for a time in his father's footsteps - a claim regarded as apocryphal by most scholars despite the fact that . have to say about rhetoric? Readers of the Phaedrus have often wondered how the dialogue answer is: about matters concerning justice and injustice (454b7). at the time he was advocating a (historically) new project in a The thinking of poetry as a written text read in silence; he had in mind How their parts (of course, Homer did not write for the stage).
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